Utah Pastor: Why Latter-day Saints Miss The TRUE Temple

Why don't Christians have temples the way that Latter-day Saints do? Thanks for watching this video. My name is Bradley and I am joined today by Pastor Matt Amati who is one of the pastors at Crossroads Church. So, he just preached through Exodus and while in Exodus there's a whole bunch about the tabernacle and there was one particular sermon that you preached where you said you wanted to take us on a journey through the tabernacle and then back out. you went to the New Testament and you showed how some of the specifics of the tabernacle pointed to Christ and his work. And I thought it was incredibly helpful because a lot of times when we're interacting with Mormonism, Christians will say, "Yeah, Jesus fulfills the temple system." And it's kind of this almost generic line, but there's real substance to that.

So, could you in a paragraph explain just a summary statement why don't you as a Christian worship in a temple anymore? Yeah, the short answer would be under the old covenant, under the um time of the Old Testament, God met with his people in a garden initially, then a tabernacle, then a temple. That was a temporary way of um God's dwelling presence to be with his people that was driving forward ultimately to the coming of Christ who is God with us and who fulfilled all of these old covenant institutions so that now we have access to God not in brickandmortar buildings but through Christ and the indwelling of his spirit.

So this is longer than a paragraph, but ultimately it's because these Old Testament institutions were intended by God to be temporary types pointing us to the sufficient work of Christ. And now that he's come, he's poured out the spirit. The church is where God dwells with his people by his spirit. And we're not looking to uh gardens or brick and mortar temples to meet with God. Could you just explain the various elements of the tabernacle? what physically was present and uh what did they do at those different spots and locations? Yeah. Okay. So, the tabernacle is a tripartite structure. In other words, it has three sections.

Um there's the courtyard. Then there is the first room inside the tent which is the holy place and then there is the most holy place behind the veil inside the tent. So you have these three parts and then in each of these parts you have different pieces of furniture. So it might be helpful before I even get to the furniture just to say that those three parts to the tabernacle and temple are reflective of the kind of three sections we see in Genesis with the garden of Eden where you have the garden, you have Eden and then you have the outside world. So that by the time we get to Exodus and God instructing Moses on how to build the tabernacle, we are picking up this kind of Edenic s sanctuary kind of this return to God's creation ideal and to how he's going to dwell with humanity.

So I think that's important to recognize and we can talk about why that's significant more. But back to the tabernacle, there's these three sections. So in the outer court you have the um the bronze altar where sacrifices were made and then you have the bronze basin. Okay, right next to the entrance of the tent. So these two pieces of furniture are significant. Sacrifices are made at the bronze altar. Um altars are symbolic of of mountains. So the bronze altar is like a mini mountain. In fact, the color bronze uh is associated with the earth. So the outside of the temple, this courtyard is associated with the earth.

You have the bronze altar in this mini mountain, you have the bronze basin representing the seas, the waters of the earth. Uh when you get to Solomon's temple, uh the the basin is on these oxen, beasts of the earth. So saints are familiar with that picture. That's right. It's actually when I sometimes I'll take people through just a side note. Sorry to interrupt, but I'll take people through um Temple Square downtown, and there's like the little diarama of the Salt Lake Temple, and people are always like, "Why are there oxen underneath that?" I'm like, "Actually, that's that was what they did in Solomon." Yeah, that's right.

Uh and and it's symbolic. Like these things are symbolic, show showing us kind of what this this whole tabernacle is to represent. And so, um the basin is where the priests washed. which is where they cleansed themselves for um working inside the tent. So you move from the outer courtyard into the first room. So you go past this curtain into the holy place. The holy place is um where you would find the lampstand, the uh table of showbread and the altar of incense. So again these pieces of furniture are symbolic. the lampstand. Its symbolism is multiaceted against the the blue and scarlet curtains inside the tabernacle.

It it's a picture of the stars in the sky, right? These these heavenly lights that shine down on the earth. Um but it's also it's it's a it's a tree. It's a little bush. It's like a burning bush. Um and it's facing towards the table of showbread where you have 12 loaves of bread. And I think the symbolism is pretty obvious there. 12 loaves of bread representing the 12 tribes of Israel. So you have these lights shining on these um 12 pieces of bread to remind Israel that Israel basks in the light of God's favor, his countenance. He provides for them. Um he's the ruler of heaven and earth who gives grains and harvest and seasons.

And so you're getting all this kind of symbolism. And then you have also this altar of incense where the coals from the bronze altar were brought. So sacrifice was made and then these coals were brought to the altar of incense where the priest would burn incense to represent the prayers of God's people ascending to the throne room of God. So the smoke from that altar would fill the tabernacle. Um, so we've moved from the outer courtyard, the earth, into the holy place, which represents the sky above with the stars shining down on the earth, the altar of incense and prayers ascending to God. And then you would go past the curtain into the inner sanctum, the holy of holies, um, where you had the ark of the covenant.

And the ark of the covenant is God's foottool. It is his throne room. Uh so the imagery is God is sitting in heaven and his feet are resting on earth. Now God doesn't have a body but uh we know it's symbolic right it's communicating these symbols these theological truths. So the holy of holies is where heaven and earth meet. On the ark of the covenant you have the cherubam with their wings stretched out facing one another. Uh you have the gold of the ark representing God's throne room his majesty his kingship. And this is where the blood of the sacrifice was brought by the priest on the day of atonement and sprinkled on the mercy seat, this cover on the ark to make atonement for the people's sins.

And so the um the priest would bring in the blood to sprinkle on the mercy seat. And it's interesting. I I always find this part interesting that uh Exodus tells us that the cherubim on the mercy seat were to have their faces facing downward as if to see the blood that is being applied. So that what's happening in that moment is uh that blood is giving humanity access into the presence of God. Israel, it's giving Israel access to the presence of God through the mediation of their high priest. Um, but it's also a picture of of like this ascent for the priest moving from the earth upwards into the heavenly throne room of God where he's presenting this blood to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Um, Michael Morales points out, and I think it's exactly right, that part of the symbolism is the priest is moving from the outer courtyard uh, westward into the Holy of Holies, past the cherubam on the curtains, sprinkling the blood on the ark of the covenant, symbolizing a re-entry of humanity back into the Garden of Eden. And so c can you explain that real quick? Especially the direction. What's the significance about this word? Yeah. When you read Genesis, um Adam and Eve are kicked out of the Garden of Eden. They are exiled, banished from the presence of God, and they are exiled to the east.

Genesis 1

And so they're kicked out eastward. And at the uh gate of the garden of Eden, so to speak, God places the cherubim and the flaming sword, barring access into his holy presence because now humanity is defiled, corrupt sinners. And so if the tabernacle is a u representation of this garden sanctuary of the garden of Eden, then the high priest is functioning like a new Adam who on the basis of blood sacrifice is moving westward because of the way the tabernacle was facing through the holy place past the cherubam on the curtain, the veil separating the holy place from the holy of holies. and back into symbolically the garden of Eden, the paradise of God to uh dwell with God in fellowship again.

So, I mean, I've said a lot there, but I'm just trying to convey that there's a lot of symbolism to these pieces of furniture to the tabernacle to the whole sacrificial system and what's happening on the day of atonement. How do you come to the conclusion that the tabernacle and the later temple is reflecting reality's true in the garden? Is there a verse that's telling you that or how are you coming to that conclusion? When we read the Old Testament, we have to recognize how later texts allude to and reference earlier texts. Moses wrote Genesis. Moses wrote Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

And in these books, he is using language, themes, vocabulary to pick up on earlier themes and earlier texts. So, one example would be um when Moses records the instructions on how to build the tabernacle, he records those instructions as God's revelation in seven speeches. So, the tabernacle is to be built according to the seven speeches of God. Those seven speeches are clearly paralleling creation. So that um we're getting these connections between God's plan for creation and what he's doing in the tabernacle and how this tabernacle is functioning as a microcosm of creation. Um so when you read Genesis for example, you'll notice that a lot of the imagery associated with the garden is later picked up in the description of the tabernacle.

Um with the cherubam that I already mentioned for example the cherubam guard access to the garden. Cherubim are put on the curtains in the tabernacle. Humanity is banished to the east. Uh the tabernacle is entered from the east. Um you have this tripartite structure. You have uh Adam's role in the garden. He's said to he's put in the garden to work it and to keep it. Those two Hebrew words avad and shamar are actually used in uh Leviticus numbers to describe the duties of priests. So Adam's being presented as a priest in the garden sanctuary to protect the space from this unclean serpent that's lurking on the outside.

And so in all these kinds of ways, Moses is signaling that there is a unity here. And what God is doing in redemption is picking up themes from creation. Now, some of the symbolism gets uh can get a little more um refined and nuanced and it can get harder like when we're talking about what does the bronze, the silver, and the gold and the tabernacle represent. It's getting a little more refined, but the big overarching themes are very clearly laid out in the connections between Genesis 1 and 2 and uh the description of the tabernacle in Exodus, for example. Now, we keep lumping together tabernacle and temple.

Are there meaningful distinctions between the tabernacle and the temple or are they essentially the same kind of thing? Yeah, I think I would say essentially they're the same kind of thing. The obviously the temple is a permanent structure. The tabernacle was made to be mobile. You could pack it up, move it. Um the temple is built by Solomon that picks up on uh the same imagery, the same pieces of furniture in the tabernacle. They're just constructed with in a much more ornate way. And so, but overall it's the same thing except now it's being um the temple is being built by Solomon as a permanent location attached to Jerusalem and God's rule from Zion and all of the promises that would later come with that.

Can you speak a little bit to Israel's rebellion and what happens when the glory of God departs the temple and the promises for restoration? Yeah. I mean, part of the promise for restoration, it seems, in the prophets is this expectation that the temple will be rebuilt. It'll be the highest, you know, seated on top of all the mountains and all the nations will come to it. And then we get the actual restoration and that doesn't seem to really happen. Yeah. Could you just talk about that a little bit? Yeah, that's a great question. It's interesting because again, one of the beautiful things about the Bible is it's a unified story.

It's telling the same redemptive story from beginning to end. So when Adam and Eve sin against God, they are exiled out of the presence of God, out of the garden sanctuary, out of the garden temple, if we want to call it that, into death, into a world of death and exile, cut off from God's presence. When Israel sins against God and breaks his law, they are exiled into Babylon, away from the temple, away from the glory of God, away from his life-giving presence. So there is a repetition of of that theme there. So the glory of God leaves the temple. We see that in the book of Ezekiel, for example, because of Israel's sin, they've broken the covenant.

They are exiled into Babylon and into death. But the prophets come along and make these promises that there's a day coming when God is going to bring his people out of exile. And when he brings Israel out of exile, he's going to pour out the spirit. He is going to uh write the law in their hearts. Jew and Gentile will come to a restored and renewed Zion together to worship the Lord. The new creation will commence. There's all these great big glorious promises. The temple will be rebuilt. Um, and then like you said, you read the books of uh uh of Nehemiah and Ezra and it's like the temple's rebuilt and people are crying because they remember the glory of Solomon's temple and this one pales in comparison.

It's clearly not the final fulfillment of those prophetic hopes. Yeah. You even get to the very end of Nehemiah, like the last chapter. It's almost the end of the narrative of the Old Testament. Yeah. Is all the ways in which Israel fails. Fails. like, "Oh, they're not keeping the Sabbath. Oh, they're intermaring again." He's just listing these things and Nehem Nei's like, "Remember me, Lord, because I tried to deal with this." It kept screwing up. Yeah. It's clearly not the uh final installment of what the prophets anticipated. The Old Testament leaves you with a sense of expectation. Yeah, the people are out of Babylon, but the exile is not over.

Um, in fact, even Isaiah seems to indicate that there will be a servant named Cyrus who is going to bring the people physically out of exile and commission them to rebuild the temple. But there's going to be another servant, the servant of the Lord, who is going to deal with the problem of sin and in other words, bring people out of spiritual exile. But you do have all these promises that are um of this renewed Israel of Jew and Gentile and a restored Zion and a rebuilt temple. But how are they fulfilled? That's the question. Well, the New Testament makes it clear that those promises are fulfilled in the coming of Christ and his work on behalf of his people.

So when you read the Gospels, for example, Jesus is recapitulating the the story in the history of Israel. He's kind of going through his own exodus out of Egypt. I called my son. Passing through the waters of the Jordan like Israel passing through the waters of the Red Sea. Um the spirit anointing him for ministry. God saying, "This is my beloved son. Going into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan for, you know, not eating for 40 days." All of these Exodus themes are being picked up in the life and ministry of Jesus. And what what the New Testament is showing us is that he is the faithful Israelite who is actually bringing all of these prophetic hopes to pass so that he is the one in whom the new creation is commenced.

Ephesians 2 · Ezekiel 40

He is the one who's going to pour out the spirit. He's the one who's bringing Jew and Gentile under the reign of God. He's the one establishing God's kingdom. So the same is true with the temple. The prophetic hopes of a rebuilt temple are not to be looked at as though those will be fulfilled in geographical Israel when a brickandmortar temple is rebuilt. The New Testament is so clearly indicating that no, Jesus is the one who tabernacled among us. Jesus said, "I'm going to destroy this temple and in three days rebuild it." referring to his body and that he is the fulfillment of those hopes and through his life, death, death and resurrection and pouring out the spirit.

He is actually building the end time temple right now. That's the church. Paul says it clearly in Ephesians 2. You are the temple, right? Um in whom the whole structure is being built up as a holy temple in the Lord. And one day at the consummation of Christ's kingdom uh in the new creation, the whole cosmos will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the lord as the waters cover the sea. And in that sense, the whole cosmos will be God's dwelling place. This renewed earth with God's new humanity as Jesus dwells in their presence. So if you read Ezekiel 40 through48 and he's talking about rebuilding the temple, I mean when you look at it closely, you can't rebuild the temple he's describing.

And the whole point is that's because the prophets were anticipating this this greater reality of God's presence filling the earth. So does that kind of answer the question? You're getting it. It's interesting in that Ezekiel text, one of the things that for me was a big deal when I I struggled with that text for a while. What do I do with this? It's an odd text. There's some difficulties there. And there's a lot of for me there was a lot of specificity about the what's happening. size of everything and the orientation of everything. So I said, "Well, this seems like it's real." Like they're anticipating this to be a real kind of temple uh that is physical and the way it seems to describe.

But Hebrews talks about how Jesus is a once-for-all sacrifice, right? And when I grasped that and then I went back to Ezekiel and I'm reading about how, oh man, they're doing atoning sacrifices in this temple. But it would be wrong to do atoning sacrifices now because it's cheapening the work of Jesus on the cross. He is the the lamb of the Passover lamb that was sacrificed for our sake. And so, okay, well, whatever that's talking about has to be fulfilled in Jesus. And if a part of that is fulfilled in Jesus and the question is what else is fulfilled in other ways uh that you might not expect.

Okay. So you mentioned how uh substantially all of these Old Testament prophecies that anticipate a restoration of Israel uh the return of the spirit of the Lord all of the hopes that Israel had for uh returning out of their second uh ex you know the second exodus coming back to the land. A lot of those were fulfilled in Jesus and fulfilled in the church. Can you talk about some of the specifics in the sermon? You had talked about the gospel of John and how John has a lot of ways in which he's pointing to the tabernacle and the elements of the tabernacle to demonstrate that Jesus really has substantially fulfilled it.

Though we ought not expect a restoration of the physical brickandmortar kind of uh dwelling place of God. Yeah. Yeah. So John tells us in chapter one that the word became flesh and tabernacled among us. That is the word he uses in the Greek to clearly signal that hey the tabernacle system fulfilled in Christ. Then in John chapter 2 is when Jesus John records Jesus talking to the religious leaders and them asking for a sign. What authority do you have? And he says I'll destroy this temple and in three days I'll rebuild it. And John tells us he was referring to the temple of his body. So I think John wants us to keep that in mind that Jesus is the tabernacle.

He is the temple. As we are reading his gospel and as we read his gospel, we find that the symbolism the uh the furniture of the tabernacle is being uh fulfilled in Christ. So let's just consider the specific examples. Um John tells us, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." That not only refers to the fact that Jesus is the Passover lamb, which is part of the Exodus story. I think it probably also signals that, hey, that bronze altar where those lambs were being sacrificed, that kind of substitutionary sacrifice is now taking place in Jesus. So then you move from there to in John's gospel all this uh uh talk about water you know and Jesus meeting with the woman at the well for example and telling her um if you would have asked me I would give you living water and you would never thirst again.

You think of the story of Nicodemus unless one is born of water and the spirit right and you get all this water imagy in chapter 3 and chapter 4 and I think even in chapter 5 with the pool of Saleom. Why is that? as well. I think John is hinting that that bronze basin, that water for purification uh is being fulfilled in Christ. Then when you move into the tabernacle, you have the lampstand. What does Jesus say about himself? I am the light of the world. He is the light of God's revelation, the light that is bringing truth. Uh John chapter 6, I am the bread from heaven. So if those 12 loaves represented the tribes of Israel, those 12 loaves on the table of showbread, well, Jesus is the true Israel.

He is the the bread from heaven. He is the um uh all all that God provided for Israel in the wilderness and the mana from heaven. All of those themes are coming to fulfillment in Christ. I didn't even mention that um the table of showbread had the um the vessels for the drink offerings, the wine. And also in John, Jesus talks about being the vine, right? He again, it's this Israel imagery. It's this tabernacle imagery. Uh in John chapter 17, we have the high priestly prayer of Jesus, which I think picks up on the altar of incense, how the priest would burn the incense so that incense would rise again to the throne room of God symbolically of of the prayers of the people ascending through the mediation of a priest.

Well, Jesus is that priest who prays on behalf of his people. Um then as John's narrative continues, you come to the cross and the resurrection. So at the cross, uh Jesus um he dies on the cross. He he says it is finished. He's fulfilling the whole Old Testament sacrificial system. While on the cross, uh they give him a drink of sour wine with hissup, which is the same material that was used in the Passover to apply the blood over the doorposts so that people, the people of Israel were spared from God's wrath when he came to bring judgment in Egypt. Again, Exodus imagery. But what is significant with the ark in John's gospel is that when you come to the resurrection, um John describes the empty tomb as having an angel at the place where Jesus's head was lain and where his feet were.

So, you have these two angels kind of flanking the place where Jesus's body lay, which I think John is telling us to echo the ark of the covenant, which had the angels overshadowing the mercy seat where atonement was made. And so, it's kind of like you have every aspect of every piece of furniture in some way being referenced or alluded to in the life and ministry of Jesus in John's gospel. So that by the time you come to the end and the death and resurrection of Christ, you're saying, "Wow, that whole old covenant system and the priest making sacrifice and bringing that blood into the holy of holies is now fulfilled in Christ." So that if I want salvation, if I'm going to be right with God, if my sins are going to be atoned for, it's only going to be found in his cross and resurrection.

It's not going to be found in uh these kinds of religious rituals or even even worse, as Hebrews says, actually going back to them. Uh because to go back to them is to sever oneself from Christ. You can't have both. You talked you very briefly referenced the priest y and the high priest and their role in the tabernacle/temple system. Can you talk about the priesthood? Because for Latter Day Saints, the priesthood is a huge deal. Uh maybe even the most significant thing in their minds as to what makes Christianity in a state of apostasy. We've lost this priesthood authority that they have restored through Joseph Smith and all the LDS leaders since then.

Hebrews 7 · 1 Peter 2

So can you talk about how Jesus is the singular high priest and what it means that he's a priest after the order of MelkiseDC and how does that fit together with the entire temple system? That's a great question. So let me answer that with kind of one line of of answer and we can unpack it however you want. Um, one of the things I haven't mentioned in this whole discussion about the tabernacle is how Hebrews says that the earthly tabernacle was a copy of the heaven reality, heavenly reality. In other words, the earthly tabernacle temple was a uh kind of temporary inferior uh tabernacle to the heavenly realm.

The heavenly realm is the true the substance of of these things. It's actually where God dwells. It's both earthly shadows are pointing us to that substance. And after Jesus rose from the dead, he entered the heavenly tabernacle. So he has entered into the true substance, the true form of those realities, which is another reason we shouldn't go back to the earthly shadows. But to your question, when he entered into the heavenly realm, or to use the language of hebrews, the heavenly tabernacle, he entered there as a high priest on our behalf. So Hebrews 7 in particular makes it clear that Jesus is the priest after the order of Melzdc and he holds this office permanently.

In other words, he doesn't have successors. He's not passing this office on to anyone else. And what qualifies him to be a priest after the order of Melzdc or according to Hebrews 7? Well, one is that he qualified uh based on the power of an indestructible life which means he rose from the dead. So the reason he is qualified to hold this priesthood which is presented in Genesis as a permanent priesthood is that he rose from the dead and lives forever. So he has taken on this office of the Melkazedcian priesthood and on the basis of his indestructible life and his sinless perfection. He is in heaven and therefore able to intercede uh always and forever for those who draw near to God through faith.

Hebrews tells us he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God since he always lives to make intercession for them. So if Jesus holds that office and he holds it by the power of an indestructible life and on the basis of his um sinless sacrifice and resurrection from the dead, then that's unique to Jesus. He is able to intercede for us sinners by virtue of that power and strength and achievement. It's not something we can do. We're mortal, sinful people. We need someone to intercede for us. Um, so I think that's important to recognize and I think that's why uh nobody holds this MelzDC in office today and it and it shouldn't be viewed as though it's being restored to other people because Jesus is still alive in heaven.

He is still interceding for us and he still holds this office. Now by virtue of him obtaining this office and entering into the heavenly realm, he has also brought the whole ironic priesthood associated with the old covenant to its fulfillment. That whole priesthood was attached to God's covenant with Israel. That covenant has been fulfilled. That covenant has been set aside. No longer are there animal sacrifices. No longer is there a need for priests to offer sacrifices the blood of bulls and goats first for his own sins and then the sins of the people because Jesus brought that to a fulfillment when he offered him his own self as a sacrifice a sufficient sacrifice once and for all.

That whole old covenant administration has been fulfilled and set aside. So to go back to the ironic priesthood is simply to undermine the glory and sufficiency of Christ's priesthood. That's the whole argument of Hebrews. And then to say, well no, we hold the Melkazedc office as well is also to undermine the sufficiency and glory of Christ's priesthood because he obtained that in a unique way that we cannot. So it's better to speak about in the new covenant era the priesthood of all believers. Not that we are holding the ironic office as it was attached to the old covenant or that were priests after the order of Melzdc but that we have been restored to this kind of uh Adamic role in that we we all have this royal priesthood 1 Peter 2 that gives us access to God.

We can go to God in prayer. uh that gives us um a a unique place in the world to intercede in prayer for the nations to uh protect the new covenant temple which is the church from satanic lies and false gospels and that is a um a ministry that belongs to every believer united to Christ in faith man or woman. So again, that's a long answer, but hopefully that starts and helps to get at why we really can't go back to brickandmortar temples. We really can't go back to the ironic priesthood. We really can't claim the Melchazdcian office. These are all realities fulfilled in Christ. And by virtue of our union with Christ, yes, we are able to minister in priestly ways, but we can't go back.

We can't undermine the sufficiency of what Christ has done. So you had mentioned the priesthood of all believers. We also mentioned how the church is in essence the now the dwelling place of God on earth. So are we both priests and a temple? How do we get from Jesus being the fulfillment of the Old Testament tabernacle temple system to now believers are the fulfillment of that? What's the relationship between Christ and believers? Yeah, that's a great question. Um what Jesus has accomplished, he has accomplished for us. So he um by virtue of his death and resurrection he is pouring out the spirit so that we are now filled with the spirit of Christ.

Uh we are united to Christ in union with him and um we are part of God's new humanity that is fulfilling his purpose for humanity from the very beginning but in a greater way. And so even though these old covenant realities are fulfilled, we see kind of parallels in the language and the way we offer up spiritual worship. So we're not running around slaughtering animals. We're not building brickandmortar temples, but we are offering up uh spiritual sacrifices of praise. We are um given a responsibility to uh again protect the church and uh keep it pure from satanic false gospels. So our responsibilities, our service, our ministry comes to us through Christ who has given us his spirit to labor and to serve him in all kinds of various ways that find connections to the the patterns of the Old Testament.

But under the administration of the new co covenant, uh they are very different as well. So with all of this in mind, when we consider Mormonism's uh thinking about temples, how would you critique that system? Why do you why do you find an issue with the way they do temple worship? Yeah, I mean on their temples it says holy to the Lord. It seems like they are trying to attach special significance to these temples about uh these temples being a place where people meet with God. Yeah. the celestial room which is like in the heart of temples. I mean that's the closest to the celestial kingdom that we can get here on earth.

Yeah. So behind a veil. So So it's like this it's like this return to the old covenant in some ways but uh but a but a different at the same time. It's like picking up some of that but then putting its own spin on it. My critique of it is again if if we go back in that direction, we're moving from substance to shadow, it's like we're moving backwards in redemptive history. And that's why I say we are we're undermining the sufficiency and the significance of the work of Christ. We don't go to buildings to meet with God. Ephesians 2 again, God is building up the church as his end time temple as those who are indwelt by the spirit.

And so to say that there is kind of this um this temple on earth, this this brick and mortar temple where that uniquely houses the presence of God or gives us closeness to God. You can't have that and have what the New Testament says about Jesus. You just can't have both. You either have to worship God through the mediation of his son and recognize that uh I have access to God through the indwelling of his spirit through the work of my great high priest in heaven and that those things are no longer here or you go back to those forms of worship and in doing so you walk away from Jesus. You think that's overstating it?

No. No, not at all. And one of the things that Latter- Day Saints often tell me is that God is the same. yesterday, today, and forever. So, we had prophets then, we need prophets now. We had a temple then, we need temples now. Uh how would you respond to that idea? Because we would agree, I actually would argue we agree more substantially that God is the same yesterday, today, forever. Uh you know, the entire idea of exaltation uh and um you know, the idea that God was once a man like us I think mean that God was not the same yesterday, today, and forever. But on the surface, we would agree with that statement and yet we have these changes.

How do we account for that? Yeah. Yeah. In history, he has chosen to reveal his plan of salvation progressively through these different covenants uh throughout redemptive history. So um while God, yes, he doesn't change, he has given us his revelation in history to um to be progressive progressively revealed and to shed more light on his plan until it comes to fulfillment in Christ. And so just because these um covenantal epochs have changed and the administration of these covenants have changed doesn't mean God changes. His character is still the same. His attributes are still the same. But it's all driving towards a fulfillment, a goal.

Um and so I would say uh another thing I would say to this is there was a temple in the Old Testament. Well, there is a temple in the New Testament. It's the church. There were priests in the Old Testament. Jesus is the priest in the new covenant. There were sacrifices in the Old Covenant. Jesus is the sacrifice of the new covenant. It's just better. It's the fulfillment. It's permanent and it's during enduring and it shows us the glory of Christ. Yeah, that's well said. Uh, one other particular objection that I've heard is people say, "Well, the earliest Christians went to the temple to worship." So they understood that temple worship was an integral part of Christianity early on in Acts and then things kind of fell apart shortly after that.

How would you respond to that? Okay. Yeah. I think I would say this. Um on the one hand, we see in the book of Acts Christians gathering in uh the temple confines for worship, Solomon's portico. um but it doesn't mean they were engaging in the sacrifices and all of the things we read about in the Old Testament. So that's one response. Just because they were there doesn't mean they were doing the rituals. Um another thing I would say is if there is examples of Christians still going to the temple and participating in these um temple forms of worship. It's only because there was this transition period where now that Pentecost came and the spirit is being poured out that um these things are kind of now it's being revealed in history that now these things are no more.

I don't know if there is an example though even in the book of Acts of somebody who Paul at one point offers a sacrifice is do you know which chapter in the book of Acts? No, I'd have to look it up. Okay. Well, I I don't remember. I don't so I I would just say is that because of a vow someone had vowed or Yeah. I think I would just say um the New Testament is clearly showing us that these old covenant forms are fading. They are no more. And the book of Acts, you know, it's not everything in the book of Acts is not normative because of this unique period of redemptive history as the gospel is going out and as the spirit is going out.

even like with the Samaritan Pentecost where it seems like you have believers who haven't received the Holy Spirit yet. But there's just this unique time in the in redemptive history where um the church is being built up and the gospel is advancing and um these old covenant shadows are now being seen to be obsolete. So while someone especially in this time period may have you know still in figuring all this out been going to the temple as the gospel advances as the apostles teaching goes out that Christ is the fulfillment of these old covenant realities those things fade away. I think also a lot of people don't realize that they wouldn't have been allowed into the temple.

Acts 7

They were allowed in the uh you know the courtyard but they couldn't have gotten in. They weren't priests. You have to be not just a Levite. You have to be a priest. And uh they weren't right. Uh I mean some of them might have been uh we have Zechariah at the very beginning of Luke's gospel who who's in there, but I think as far as I can remember that's the only instance in the New Testament we see of someone actually entering into the inner parts of the physical temple. Yeah. And that and and in Luke's gospel that's before the cross and resurrection. Right. Right. So we're still in this kind of transition period of Yes.

Christ has come and during his earthly life, he's fulfilling the law, but you still have the old covenant administration in effect. It's only through his death and resurrection that these things are finally brought to their completion. If temple works were an integral part of our exaltation and our eternal life, if they were the necessary prerequisites for us to be able to enter into God's kingdom, you imagine that at least at one point in the New Testament, there would be illusion to them or a reference. uh if if the New Testament just neglected to talk about one of the most essential ways in which uh we need to do things in order to be right with God or enter his kingdom, then the New Testament authors really need to rethink what they're writing about.

Uh it seems like when you look at the thing things and motifs that are repeated again and again and again throughout the New Testament, there's far more of an emphasis on how both Jew and Gentile are united together in Christ by faith. and that by faith they're justified. And because they're justified, they have peace with God. No temples needed. Uh no physical ordinances like that needed. Not to say that baptism uh and the Lord's supper are not important elements of Christian worship, but they're not the uh necessary prerequisites for entrance into God's kingdom. Yeah, that's a really good point.

And even while you were saying that, think about Acts chapter 7 in the book of Acts. as we were thinking about the book of Acts. So, you're saying that we don't have these instructions on keeping these temple ordinances in the New Testament in order to obtain uh salvation. Well, think about Acts 7. One of the accusations against Steven uh by the Jews was that he is um uh kind of saying the temple is no longer needed. Yeah, that's an actual accusation that they were bringing. And Steven's answer, if you read closely in Acts 7, is don't you Jews realize that God's presence was with his people in all kinds of ways even before the tabernacle was built?

And don't you also realize that the earthly tabernacle was a pattern of the heavenly reality? So you Jews are trying to hold on to the earthly temple. But what I'm telling you is even when you read the Old Testament, you can see that it was temporary. you can see that it was inferior to the heavenly reality and what happens it gets him stoned. Yeah. Yeah. I I also think about Paul's writing in Galatians where he's talking I think chiefly about circumcision about the Judaizers wanting to add circumcision to faith in Christ. But one of the things he talks about is um if I if circumcision was needed then what offense is there here?

The thing that's offensive about the gospel they're proclaiming is that it has done away with the particular stipulations of Moses. and the uh mosaic system and those things were no longer necessary. They were they were a guardian. They were temporary. They were meant to point to what Christ would do. And then once the fulfillment of those things came, we don't operate in shadows anymore. We don't deal with the the types anymore. We have the substance. Right. Um now, one thing that it's kind of in a different category here, but you had talked about how Jesus was um God's firstborn son. uh how out you know out of uh Egypt I called my son.

Luke 24 · Hebrews 1:6 · Colossians 1:15

These these statements in the gospels that talk about Jesus being the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Now critics will say well the apostles are totally misinterpreting the original meaning of those texts in the Old Testament especially the one I think it's from Hosea out of Egypt I called my son. Right. Um, and so all of our theology here is developed on the idea that Jesus really is the intended recipient and fulfillment of the these Old Testament promises. But some people would say, well, these Old Testament promises are not actually there. Uh, they're totally being misinterpreted even by the New Testament authors.

Now, some would say maybe under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they are allowed to do that. Um, but still essentially that's not what the Old Testament authors meant to convey. What would you say to that? Yeah, I would I would disagree and I would say according to Jesus in Luke 24 that the Old Testament promises in in the law of the prophets and writings, the Old Testament texts were really about him. So I would say that the Old Testament is typological. They are they are uh giving us types and patterns that are aiming at the Messiah that are going to find their fulfillment in the Messiah.

It doesn't mean the Old Testament authors had everything every detail figured out about uh the incarnation and and um how God's kingdom would come in the person of Christ. But let's just take for example the firstborn. Okay, so Jesus is the firstborn. Uh, Hebrews 1:6, Colossians 1:15, and Colossians 1:18, I believe, uh, both refer to Jesus as the firstborn. Um, well, the Old Testament talks about other firstborns. Israel is God's firstborn. Exodus 4:22, I think it is. Um, the Davidic Messiah is the firstborn. Psalm 89. Psalm 89 refers to David's greater son as the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

So when we come to the New Testament and we read about Jesus as the firstborn, we have to understand that language in light of the Old Testament, in light of the patterns of the Old Testament and its meaning in the Old Testament. If we just import our understanding of firstborn, then we're with this kind of impossible situation where now we have all these firstborn sons of God and there can be only one firstborn in a birth order. But that's clearly not what the Old Testament is talking about. When Israel is the firstborn and the Davidic Messiah is the firstborn of God, it's being presented to us in a covenantal context that is indicating preeminence, supremacy.

I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth, the one who rules over all, the one who will receive the inheritance. Israel would receive the promises. They would receive the inheritance. So that's what firstborn language is getting at all of these kind of covenantal themes. So when we read in Hebrews 1:6 when he brings the firstborn into the world that all the angels of God worship him, it's not saying that Jesus, the son of God, was created by the father at some point in eternity past. It's saying that the resurrected Christ is worthy of worship because he is the Davidic king who is supreme over all the nations.

When Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as the firstborn of creation, it's saying he is preeminent and sovereign over all of creation because he is the creator of all. And he's the firstborn from the dead because he's the first man of the new creation who in his incarnate state rose from the dead. In other words, my point is the New Testament is not reading into the Old Testament or uh interpreting it in such a way as to say things about Jesus that weren't there. It's recognizing how these patterns, how these types, how these shadows are actually pointing us to Christ and how they are actually fulfilled in Christ.

Exodus 24

So when when Hosea says, "Out of Egypt I um when Israel was a child, I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son." Well, Hosea is referring to Israel. But Hosea is also viewing Israel's past exodus as a pattern for this future exodus when God will bring pe his people out of exile. And when he brings them out of exile, it's going to be like resurrection from the dead. That's what Hosea says. So it's like coming out of death into life. It's this exodus is going to be led by a Davidic king. So you have all these patterns, this this this anticipation of of that. Well, when Jesus come again, Matthew's showing us that Jesus is the true Israel and that he's fulfilling these prophetic hopes from Hosea because he is bringing people out of exile.

He is going to die and rise from the dead. He is going to lead this new exodus. Did Hosea have that all worked out in every detail? No. But he gave us these patterns that were pointing us to a future fulfillment that the New Testament clearly indicates is fulfilled in Christ. So I don't think we should view the apostles as having some uh special hermeneutic because they were inspired. I think inspiration guaranteed that they interpreted the Old Testament rightly. But I think that they are showing us actually how the Old Testament is to be read and that their reading of the Old Testament should be our reading of the Old Testament.

And we can actually get there when we understand the Old Testament correctly and how these patterns are unfolding across the canon of scripture. If someone wanted to learn more about these things particular to the temple and the tabernacle and Christ's fulfillment of that, where in the Bible should they go to read? Like what would be some good texts for them to study? Yeah. So, I mean, people should read Genesis 1 and 2 and just have this kind of temple imagery in their mind as they're reading. They should read Exodus. um read Exodus 24 and following. 24 is actually where God meets with uh Moses at Sinai.

But Sinai becomes kind of this uh model for the tabernacle. We didn't we don't need to go into that right now, but read Exodus 24 and following which talks about the description of of how the tabernacle is. That's norally the parts where people start skipping. Yeah. Yeah. It's very detailed and yeah, it can be laborious, but you know, read that. Um they can read first kings 6 and the Solomon's construction of the tabernacle, first kings 8. Um and then read New Testament texts like Hebrews. Uh Hebrews says a lot about the tabernacle. Read the Gospel of John. The thing is the temple is such a huge theme.

You find it all over the place, but I'm trying to zero in on some really important passages. So, Hebrews, John, um, Ephesians 2. Yeah. No, that's good. Just in case someone's like, I don't even know anything about this. Love to learn more. What What are some non-biblical books that might be really helpful for people? Uh, people should read GK Beiel's I think it's called The Temple and the Church's Mission. Yeah, that is an excellent book. Excellent book. Tracing the theme of the temporal from Genesis to Revelation. I think people should read Michael Morales. Um, who shall ascend the mountain of the Lord?

Excellent book that will talk a lot about the temple theme. Um, what might be a simpler uh book to read on this topic? Uh, TD Alexander's from Eden to the New Jerusalem might help put some of these connections together. Um, the beautiful thing about the Bible is there's one divine author behind all the human authors and the Bible is telling one unified story. And so when we're talking about an issue like a temple, we don't just have to play scriptural pingpong. It's actually giving us an understanding of the temple in this framework so that when we come along and say, "Look, we don't need brickandmortar temples." It's not just a proof text.

The whole Bible is actually showing us that it's a cumulative argument, systemic argument kind of similar to the trinity in some ways. Uh where this is not the trinity verse, right? So we have to take the entirety of the text of scripture into account when we consider the doctrine of the trinity perhaps a similar kind of thing here. I think so. For those who are um you know Latter-day Saints or questioning Latter- Day Saints, what would you want to tell them? Uh in closing? Yeah. I would say to people who are Latter-day Saints, Jesus is the fulfillment of all Old Testament promises, expectations, and hopes.

And he is the only one who can give us salvation. We have to know who he is and understand him as the Bible presents him. Let's not just have whatever preconceived categories that we have or others have told us and let's go to the Bible and look what the Bible says about Jesus. And what the Bible says about Jesus is that he is God with us. The eternal son of God who took on flesh and came to earth to live a life in perfect obedience to the law to fulfill the law on our behalf and then to die under the penalty of the law. So he not only kept it perfectly in his life, he then paid the penalty which he didn't deserve to die but he did it as a substitute, a sacrifice for sinners.

He died as the Passover lamb. He died as the sufficient sacrifice so that our sins, past, present, and future could be forgiven. He then rose from the dead to conquer death and ascended to heaven where he sits at God's right hand right now into the heavenly realm. And our hope, our salvation can only come to us, salvation can only come to us through faith in what he has done. He's done all the work. Everything the Bible talks about is about him and about what he has accomplished. So we can't add anything to that. There is no religious ritual that we can do that is going to kind of merit some kind of righteousness or overcome the curse.

There is no no kind of um temple work that is going to make us worthy of achieving exaltation. The whole Bible is about Jesus. God wanted to show us that he is the one in his grace providing the answer to our plight which is sin and death and only Jesus has died under the wrath of God as a substitute sacrifice and conquered death. How can what he has obtained be given to me and be given to any listener who's listening to us? Through faith in him. That's the call of the gospel is to repent of our sins. whatever beliefs we're chasing, whatever religious rituals we're chasing, repent of those things that are not the true gospel, and turn to God.

Believe in Christ. Trust in him, and you will have salvation that is found in Christ alone. That's what I would say. Amen. Amen. I was thinking this whole time about when Jesus said, "Something greater than the temple is here." Uh it's like there is perfect summary statement right there. Uh if you want a proof text right there, I guess. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really helpful for us to think deeply about the particulars of the tabernacle. Again, not just in general terms, but particular terms. Jesus fulfills not just the temple as a giant category, but all the individual elements of it.

He is the sacrifice. He is the dwelling place of God on earth. He is the true Israel. He is uh God's presence, the light of God's presence. He is all of these things. And uh therefore, like you said, to have brick and mortar temples is to go back in time, to go the wrong way in redemptive history. So, thanks so much for watching. Uh if you have any questions or comments, uh be sure to leave them down below in the comments, and maybe we'll do a follow-up video if there's enough of them, uh that, you know, you're curious to ask about some of the details of this, maybe we'll do something else on this topic.